There has been some discussion lately around our club about the possible inclusion of Forge World units in our campaigns and leagues. There are those who do not wish to see them made legal for various reasons and there are those who don't have a problem one way or the other, and then there are those players who see them as being just an extension of the codex units. Those latter players are trying to force the issue by saying that all FW units are now 40K legal. That's not true though. It also doesn't mean that anyone can just turn up with an FW unit in their army. Some opponents just will not play against them. I can understand why too.
Forge World makes some awesome models and expands the military forces of the forty-first millennium. However when it comes to balance and points costs, they are often way out and that is the problem. That and some armies don't get anything even remotely resembling a boost from FW. Forge World should just stick to making the resin models whilst GW should be adding their units, probably pointed and balanced, to the codexes. Then we would see them being properly balanced and people wouldn't complain.
All of this means that for the 2013 league (possibly map campaign) I need to decide how to handle Forge World units. At the moment we have a couple players who want to play the new Eldar Corsair army list and I have agreed pending them giving everyone else a chance to review it in advance of the campaign. As for everyone else I am pondering allowing each player three FW units that they can use but if an opponent doesn't want to face them, they can't use them in that game.
It's all so complicated and no one is going to walk away happy with whatever I decide to do.
Allow the lists (Krieg, Vraks Renegades, Armoured Company, Elysians, Corsairs, Tyrant Legion etc etc) They all have strong points, and glaring weaknesses. Everyone just sees the brokeness though.
ReplyDeleteDisallow the additional units, you are just inviting disaster (contemptors, lucius drop pods, mass flyers etc etc)
The newer Forge World stuff (Imp. Armour Apocalypse Volume 2 onwards) is actually quite balanced, as long as you pay attention to the stamps they put on it, which make it clear what's intended for apocalypse and what's for normal games. The problem is Forgeworld has gotten this label for being overpowered because those distinctions weren't clear in older imperila armours and many people used apocalypse-intended units in normal gamed, which where naturally overpowered in smaller games.
ReplyDeleteI'd welcome Forgeworld and units at the club. I own a Space Wolves Contemptor current and I'm intending to pick up two more Mortis pattern ones for my Deathwing and a Decimator for my chaos. Obviously it's up to individual players whether they want to play against them or not, but it's nice to have the option.
As for the league, it's a little unfair to give your opponent a choice whether to face them or not, as people spend a lot of time and effort on the models and given the choice, any player even half way competitive would rather face, say 3 normal dreads than three Contemptors - those who bring FW units will never get to use them! Forgeworld units are powerful, but you pay serious points for what they do. A standard Contemptor without upgrades is nearly 200 on it's own. If you want decent guns and upgrades on it, you're looking at 250-300 points for a single dread.
Maybe as a compromise, try this
- allow FW lists, as they're actually weaker than most 'dexes
- limit the others to one or two FW units in a list, but your opponent doesn't have a say in whether or not they face them - In this overpowered age of Grey Knights and Necrons dominating the table, a single possibly powerful unit you pay a hefty amount of points for is the least of peoples worries
- no FW fliers
The problem is that the club is devided on their use. If I say that a player doesn't get a say (and we are doing changeable lists, but same codex, between rounds) then there are people who will refuse to play. I can't do that. Likewise I can't just say no to the people who want to play FW, for the same reason.
DeleteTake Simon for instance. Good bloke and always a fun game. However, his argument is that FW doesn't give anything to Grey Knights. What was in the Seige of Vraks books is either out of date (updated) or just isn't an investment (GK thunderhawks). He doesn't get any other new toys whereas space marines, chaos, orks, eldar, tau, IG, DE and tyranids all get lots of nice new toys. I can see his point very clearly.
Also Knorne you saying no FW flyers? When they would now use the flyer rules, FW flyers are the only reason I will play FW, and if they weren't allowed, I am not interested in most forge world stuff as it a waste of money, and then so I would refuse to play against them on the grounds of balance.
ReplyDeleteThe recent FAQs updated them to use the rulebook flyer rules.
DeleteSimon using the argument that some armies get toys and others don't isn't really a defence, as certain armies get all the love in normal armies and others are left out in the cold. I can see how he sees it, but its like saying 'my Space Marines don't get access to Stormravens so I'm not going to play'. If he wants FW stuff (not that GK need it, they have more toys than any other codex without FW), then he can take a small set of allies and bring them in that way
ReplyDeleteI think the best plan is to test run FW rules as much as possible at the club between now and the start of the league to gague peoples reaction to it. I think the issue's being blown out of all proportion, i remember the league I took part in a few years ago allowed a FW unit in every army and noone had a problem with it
The other problem is, a lot of players dont own forgeworld stuff due to cost etc, and they are going to feel left out, and if they lose against FW models, they might get annoyed and drop out!
ReplyDeleteI reckon
1 FW model max, (of course no apoc stuff etc) just 1 normal legal FW piece and nothing else, (except the fw codex's, I have no problem with them.
I agree with Fish, 1 FW unit, unless you're fielding a FW codex.
ReplyDeleteIf people drop out if they lose against FW stuff they can't afford, it'd be a bit childish of them. Most of the non-apoc stuff is not all that more expensive than GW stuff these days. For example, a Chaos Decimator is about £45 once you buy the arms for it, which is about the price of a Stormraven or any large vehicle these days. I can see how they'd get annoyed being beaten if they don't know what it does, but the price shouldn't be their reason. As an ammendment to the 'only 1 FW unit rule', maybe include a stipulation that if you field something, you have to provide a copy of its rules to your opponent too, so they know what they're facing and what it can do